Some problems

[ADC]

Hi guys! So, a bit of a weird post. Please bear with me and help if you can.

I've got some problems that I don't quite know how to approach concerning PGA2000. I love this game, and am inspired by all the works you put out. Among my favorite designers/designs are Dale Somerfelt (Oakmont and Baltusrol), Brian Z (Bull's Eye) and Polsad (Augusta 2005 and Muirfield). The attention to quality replications of real life courses, and those fantasy courses that are so well done I could swear they were real, is the best part of this game to me.

My goal on any given hole is to make something that looks realistic and plays challenging. But I having a lot of trouble finishing a course. A lot of trouble. As I see it, the same rules apply in PGA as they do in real life: great holes are made by growing them out of the terrain you have to work with. Repeat 18 times. To this end, some of the stuff I think is my best comes from plots you all made. I can "walk" them, see where the course might be. But those courses don't seem to pain out for me because my either my focus shifts, and I suddenly want to find a better route, or the plot is just not really what I want as the idea evolves. Before I know it, the course I'm working on is vastly different than the one I started with. Not much room for a good, let alone great, project there.

The other way of starting is from scratch. I find this...very hard. I'm trying to start getting a sense of a golf course out of a 2000x2000 yard flat green thing. It's just not how I start to see holes grow. When I do get started, it quickly dissolves. I'll get so bent up on one shot path angle that doesn't mesh with those around it and get frustrated beyond belief when it just out turn right.

I've had this country club idea in my head for a while now. It's in the vein of my favorite U.S. Open courses, Winged Foot and Baltusrol (yes, I'm a shameless Tillinghast fan) with a little Oakmont thrown in there. A high order indeed. I'm trying to approach each hole, as well, by studying Tillinghast's great holes and doing...variations on a theme. This will hopefully be two courses in one "file", fitting together and playing off similar features, sort of like what Brian Z did with the Bull's Eye/Tri City courses. I want two 18 hole routes, but will take a full course and a spare nine if I can. As near complete grounds as possible, as well. This is a fancy place, steeped in fictional "history." I like to design courses set in the past, when a 275 yard drive really was a big one. I know this is an ambitious project, but it's been toying in my head for quite some time, I just...need to get going and don't know how.

I first tried to make this fit an already made plot, but it didn't work. You just can't make mountains into the rolling terrain I want. I know I have to build this from scratch myself, but I just can't get ONE really solid routing down, let alone two. Any advice? What should I do?

Thanks,
ADC

PS: This is a photo of the kind of work I'm doing these days. I am rather proud of it, even if it is incomplete. I've grown a lot since I started playing this again.

[Mike New]

Been there, done that, still wear the tee-shirt.

I have a real course that I started routing back in 2006 that has shapes and objects and that's it, no elevations. Even though I can all but guarantee no-one here would have ever played it, I can't bring myself to add "fake" elevations to it, even though no-one would ever know the difference. In fact, it's been so long that they've even made a number of alterations to the course.

I'm too much of a perfectionist. If I can, on a real course I have to have the trees in the right place and set at the right height. I takes a lot out of me sometimes and I get classic cases of burnout. But I still look forward to getting the course as close to perfect as I can possibly make it. That's why I've never released anything for PGA2000... I've never finished anything.

I'm finding at the moment that I have to leave myself hungry for a project. I have 4 or 5 courses that I consistently tinker. When I feel that I'm starting to get restless, I stop before it goes too far, then come back a couple of days later to tidy it up. That helps to see the forest, rather than just the tree (that's 89 feet tall) in front, but it's no cure.

[Terry Grayson]

A couple of thoughts...

#1: Totally agree with everything you have said there... I found and sometimes still find it difficult to get a good routing down... I used to be the total opposite, I could not for the life of me design a course out of a pre-made landplot. I always found that so very difficult... I would always build a hole to completion, even with plantings then start with the next hole... But something was always missing...

There have been many tips and tricks I have picked up along the way... I cant remember who said it, (Maybe Dano) but he / they said it best... Concentrate working on the tee areas, the view that you see from the tee is very important in "catching' the eye of the golfer. I can always tell from the very first tee, if I will LOVE or just LIKE the course.. You want something to catch the eye... The approach shots are very important too. Look at the picture you posted from the approach angle... That is one more beautiful view you have there. Even down to the plantings, the cart path, how the bunkers are framing your greensite (Which looks amazing I might add) Look around there, everything is in proper scale (Which is HUGE) and looks natural and it just fits... How you have the plantings on the right side of the greensite matching up so perfectly with the background/pano in the back left of the picture... Proper pano choice is also something that makes and breaks a course, and you sir NAILED IT,in this picture..

Greensites I believe are the most important design element you want to get right, the majority of the time is spent there playing this game.. Proper bunker structure surrounding the greens is very important....Yours looks great from the picture.... You want to add some design elements that make the green a GREEN if that makes sense... Backdrops, false fronts, swales, gathering areas, etc... From this picture it looks like the green slopes left to right and back to front.... I like how the illusion from the pic shows if you are short and right, it will gather down toward the front right bunker... That is intimidation at its best..

For me course design gets me to thinking (Now days anyway) of proper scale (I learned this from Robert Wagers) that is something i never once thought about ... Look at hole #2 on Cliff Course at Stone forest... How the rock faces on the right of the tee, and then the trees on top of the mountain flow down to toward the fairway... If I made gigantic trees there on that mountainside, it just would not look right. Too many times we focus on getting a large tree there for a shadow or something, but when it comes to proper scale that just doesnt look natural. I think that was my best work, because finally I understood what it is supposed to look like....


When I build a course today, I am thinking about the clickers, and the tru swingers and the recreators... I want the hole to dictate to each what they should do. I dont always get it right but sometimes i do.... From the tee shot, I want bunkers out there that will make all three type players think about what they are going to do... Ill put some out there around 250-275 and also some out there 290-315 for those big hitters.. I want them to think about what they are going to do and not just bash the ball... I want them to worry about the greensite and where they need to land the ball as well.... It has really helped me in my work....

You mentioned shot paths... I may be misunderstanding what you meant about them not being in the right place, but you can change them if you wasnt aware of that...Just click on one of the dots, and hit the dete button, and change it to another spot.....

I hope some of this helps.. I may be leaving out a thought or two, and may add more later...

[ADC]

Hi guys!

Thank you soooo much for your help. I needed it a ton, and it was just enough to break this routing lethargy I've been having. Had a brainstorm today, and got this routing down. I'm very pleased with it. Thought I'd spruce it up a bit and share it.

Here is the south course of the county club I'm working on. The name and place and place are completely undecided, though these are working titles of the two past courses I was on. Anyone got any ideas for a good name for a course of the ilk of Winged Foot and Baltusrol? I don't necessarily mean the course is of the ilk, but the name sound?

I know the back nine score card reads a little long...I'll be editing it a bit, so in the end, both nines will play at right about 3500 each. I believe in fair golf; there need to be 3 or so birdie holes each nine, and 3 or so bogey holes as well. So, its tweaking ahead, but the hole center lines I have hear won't be changing much.

I think I'm going to update on this fairly frequently. I really want to finish this time, and having something to share somewhat often may help.

[Mike New]

If you're looking for a good name, think about the area your course is set, or the likes of Baltusrol, Winged Foot, Shinnecock Hills, The Country Club... all good, strong, assertive names. Check the area on a map. Try and find unusual and unique names.

What's important to you at the moment? Reading any good books, seen meaningful movies? My course, Penrhyn Township, is named for the ship, Lady Penrhyn, that carried the first female European settlers to Australia in the late 1700s, which in turn is named for a castle on the northern coast of Wales. The idea for naming it came after reading "The Fatal Shore" about Australia's early days. BTW, I am not a reader, but this one was of extreme interest to me. Plus, it's an unusual name and, to be honest, I really don't know how to pronounce it properly. I assume it's pen-rin.

The course is set, on fictional terrain, near the grounds of the castle. The original name, going way back in the JNSE days, was St. Michaels. An absolute after-thought. I haven't changed too much from the original design, but the course means much more to me now than it did back in the day.

Forget the modern fifi stuff like 'The Bluffs at Pine Ridge landing', 'The Links Course at Swallow Hollow' or 'The Brook at Fawn Meadows'. Think three words, Cypress Point Club, The Country Club, The K Club.

[ADC]

I'm thinking Marionic (Mary-onic) Country Club, somewhere in the New York, New Jersey, or Connecticut areas.

[Indy Anna Jones]

Marionic sounds like a good name; shades of Marion CC. The only thing I suggest when choosing a name is to keep it in the setting. "Something Links" when it's forested, or "XYZ Mountain" when it's a parkland-style course has always turned me off.

I would say one of the main things to keep in mind when doing your layout is that sim-golf and real golf are two different animals. For most real players 475 yard p4s and 550 yard p5s are total beasts, yet for sim golfers they're easily reachable, depending on the wind. I would say most clicker-recreators average 315-330 yard drives; even clickers average around 275-280, so reaching 500 yard holes isn't that tough (again depending on the wind.)

I'm not saying to trick up a course, but strategically positioned doglegs, hazards and traps and tough but fair greens seems to be the best way to make your course both challenging and fun to play. I like trees that force you to keep your ball to one side of the fairway or the other too, but that's personal preference.

[sandwedge]

Wow, really 315 yards? I am a tri-clicker and I average about 265 yards off the tee according to my stats. Personally, I love courses that give a lot of options and consider players of different skill levels. Otherwise, my family is not able to play a fun round together cause them girls are just that good! I also like courses with difficult greens because I find the putting to be the easiest component in PGA 2000 gameplay. It really is not much fun to have a putting average lower than the price of a candy bar Of course with the way I play, putting for par from 30 feet is an event that happens too often for my liking so don't make the greens too tough

[ADC]

Right, and I should have explained a little more about the routing map I posted. Nothing in the name was meant to be "seriously." The reason I wrote "The Links of" etc, etc was because I remember seeing lots of old newspaper clippings when golf courses were formed in the early years, they would publish it, and a course routing was more simply known as the links. It was late when I posted this, and I was tired, didn't think to explain.

Marionic is now the official title. It will be a very tree lined course. My own preferences, tree planting wise, is for them to stay out of the way. They should frame the hole, not necessarily be a hazard. I want my bunkers to make you think where you want to put the ball.

[Indy Anna Jones]

My idea with trees is that if you stay on the fairway you're safe; if not then tuff stuff. But if the landing area is 100 yards wide, and tree placement makes you choose one side or the other, I don't have any problem with that. Harbourtown is an example of one of those types of courses.

I can't tell you which courses they are off hand, but I know I've played 2 or 3 courses whose names imply one type but they're another. I guess it's no big deal, or shouldn't be anyway, but it just bothers me.

I've wondered sometimes how designers came up with a particular oddball name. It's sad we didn't have an archivist starting back in 2000 and that the various websites like Copyright Club fried and most of the info was lost.